00:00:00: Hi, my name is Mariam and today I'll be hosting the very first episode of the Epicon podcast.

00:00:06: Palestinian and Israeli civil society still has agency. Agency overshaping the current realities

00:00:15: and the future of Palestine and Israel. Against all odds courageous individuals from both sides

00:00:22: are choosing to engage, to defy political stagnation and to present concrete ideas and plans for a

00:00:28: peaceful solution. These individuals insist that peace is not simply a diplomatic agreement.

00:00:35: It must be built on the ground through dialogue, human connection and shared commitment.

00:00:41: They claim that it is the responsibility of political leaders to listen and to translate

00:00:47: their insights and proposals into decision-making and real action. Our Palestinian and Israeli

00:00:54: guests on this podcast include former prisoners and soldiers, relatives of hostages, leading

00:01:00: peace activists and mediators, scholars, legal experts and more. Voices rarely heard in Europe.

00:01:07: They bring forward thinking, pragmatic and actionable ideas in response to a central question.

00:01:13: What can Europe do?

00:01:21: Today we are joined by Dr. Jamal Nusebe, a Palestinian-American lawyer, legal scholar and investor.

00:01:28: He taught law at Al-Quds University in Jerusalem and has been deeply involved in Palestinian affairs

00:01:35: since the 90s, including in peace negotiations. Dr. Nusebe has spoken on Middle Eastern affairs

00:01:42: in numerous fora, including on Capitol Hill in Washington DC and at the UK House of Lords.

00:01:49: He is also a frequent commentator and analyst in various English and Arabic-speaking media outlets.

00:01:54: As a member of the Palestinian Technical Working Group, he co-authored a new working

00:02:02: paper titled "A Palestinian Armistice Plan, Charting a Rights-Based Transition for Palestinian

00:02:09: Israeli Peace" that was published just recently in June 25. This paper presents a comprehensive

00:02:17: political roadmap for a permanent ceasefire in the occupied Palestinian territory and Israel,

00:02:22: as well as for a structured transition period toward a just and durable peace agreement.

00:02:28: In this episode, Dr. Jamal Nusebe will talk us through the main elements of this proposal.

00:02:34: We will discuss why it is necessary to structure such plans around Palestinian

00:02:39: self-determination and as a rights-based process and how realistic such a framework is.

00:02:46: We'll also get into the importance of international engagement and specifically address Europe's role.

00:02:52: It's a pleasure to have you here, Jamal. Thank you, Maryam. Nice to be here.

00:02:57: Jamal, if you don't mind, let's start with you sharing some personal and professional insights

00:03:04: about your involvement with the Palestine question. Sure. So, I was born Palestinian.

00:03:13: I mean, being Palestinian is something that one is, one doesn't really choose it.

00:03:17: And I grew up in Jerusalem in the 80s at a time when in Jerusalem, East Jerusalem and where I

00:03:28: was living was very much under occupation. It still is. In those days, it was more recognized

00:03:34: as such by the world. And one of the things that's actually changed a lot is how the world now perceives

00:03:40: Jerusalem as perhaps more Israeli, although on the ground it's not.

00:03:46: East Jerusalem remains very much a separate entity for those who live there, for the Palestinians

00:03:52: who live there. And as a Palestinian growing up under occupation in Jerusalem, I was very

00:04:01: aware of the presence of the occupation, the Israeli military and so on, the fact that

00:04:10: our lives were extremely restricted in many ways. And as I grew up, the first Intifada began in

00:04:16: late 1987 and then it took hold of all of our lives. So, I guess you could say that that

00:04:26: the cause of freedom and rights was something that I was born with and was part of my DNA.

00:04:39: And throughout the rest of my life, I went abroad to study, I went back, I went abroad again, I went

00:04:45: back and I've always felt a need, myself personally, to contribute somehow to

00:04:57: achieving freedom for the Palestinians, for my people. The last decade or so, I was

00:05:07: not involved or not very involved. I had switched to the private sector, I was working in

00:05:14: investments and energy and all of these things far away from that. And then really with October 7

00:05:24: and the Israeli actions since then, I realized that there was an urgent, I couldn't sit down,

00:05:34: I mean there was no way that I could just sit by and watch the annihilation of my people and

00:05:42: therefore began to think about what I could do to help how one could stop it and how we could

00:05:49: also ensure that it wouldn't happen again. And it wouldn't happen again for the Palestinians,

00:05:55: for the Israelis, how we could finally end this conflict and find a way to live together

00:06:02: side by side or together. It actually doesn't really matter how the point is just

00:06:08: to find a way to no longer be in conflict so that the next generation doesn't grow up this way,

00:06:14: so that the next generation grows up with safety and hope and not just a future but actually a

00:06:21: safe present. I also have a branch of my family that is in Gaza, unfortunately some of them have

00:06:30: been killed in the past year or two and obviously not just that but colleagues and friends or

00:06:38: family of colleagues and friends. So this is a personal issue as well as being a kind of national

00:06:44: one if you like. Thank you for sharing. Now before we get into the key components of the

00:06:52: armistice plan I want to point out that we are recording on the 9th of July just two days after

00:07:00: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was welcomed by US President Donald Trump at the White

00:07:06: House. When asked by reporters whether a two-state solution that creates an independent Palestine

00:07:14: was possible, Trump said "I don't know" and referred the question to Netanyahu who replied

00:07:21: and I quote directly "I think the Palestinians should have all the powers to govern themselves

00:07:27: but none of the powers to threaten us. That means a sovereign power like overall security

00:07:33: will always remain in our hands. Now that is a fact and no one in Israel will agree to anything else

00:07:40: because we don't commit suicide." Later he added that another Palestinian state would be a platform

00:07:47: to destroy Israel as can be seen with what he called the current Hamas state. What in your

00:07:54: opinion are the implications of this, of such statements, of such framing for the future of

00:08:02: Palestine? So I mean I would say that I would turn that round against Prime Minister Netanyahu

00:08:13: and say I think the Israelis should also have the power to govern their lives but not the power to

00:08:18: threaten us. The power to threaten is not actually a civilized thing to have or a civilized way of

00:08:30: doing business. What we need and what the world needs and what people tried to do after the Second

00:08:38: World War was institute a rules-based order to prevent countries from using power and threat

00:08:46: as a means of achieving what they perceive to be their interests. And I think that the attitude

00:08:55: that's being portrayed there apart from being paternalistic colonialist and so on is also indicative

00:09:05: of a I would say a problematic attitude towards the future of our region. At another level

00:09:21: I would also say that it doesn't really matter what Prime Minister Netanyahu thinks

00:09:28: that people have a right to be free, that people have a right to self-determination

00:09:38: as a people and that they have a right to express themselves in the form of a polity of a state

00:09:47: because that's what our system is based on. Whether or not they're occupier in this case

00:09:55: Israel thinks that's a good idea. It's not really Israel's choice.

00:10:00: But if I were to respond also on another point I would say that I don't see a state of Palestine

00:10:14: if it is done correctly a real state of Palestine with proper borders along the 1948

00:10:24: Armistice Line which are the 1967 borders up to 1967. I don't see that as a source of threat

00:10:33: to Israel in any case. I see that as a source of the end of the threat to Israel.

00:10:43: What Prime Minister Netanyahu has I think failed to understand throughout his many many decades

00:10:50: in politics is that Israeli security is not going to be guaranteed unless there is peace.

00:11:01: So what he needs to understand and what some Israelis already understand

00:11:10: but I think we need to get this message through to more of them is that the paradigm needs to change.

00:11:17: It is peace first and it is the peace that will get you the security that is so much needed

00:11:25: and wanted and security by the way is something I don't like the concept of security. I prefer

00:11:33: if we're going to use that term I would talk about human security. It's a much broader term,

00:11:38: it's a much more individual term, it involves things like the ability to have food and shelter

00:11:42: and so on and I like the term safety. I want people to feel safe and if we look at the

00:11:49: security situation now in Palestine Israel there is a and the people who are the most insecure

00:11:56: and who are suffering the most from that lack of security are the Palestinians not the Israelis

00:12:04: and they continue to do so every day. I mean we have at the moment we as Palestinians

00:12:09: mainly in Gaza but also in the West Bank and Jerusalem are being killed at a rate of almost

00:12:14: 100 per day. That's a lot of insecurity believe me. So I would say that we need to shift the

00:12:23: paradigm and we need to flip it so that peace comes first and I would point to the fact or two

00:12:32: facts. I would point first to the fact that the security paradigm walls fences technology

00:12:41: tanks helicopters whatever failed both to detect and to prevent the horrors that were inflicted

00:12:52: upon Israel on October 7th by Hamas. They just failed and on the other hand I would also

00:13:02: say that the states with which Israel has peace agreements Jordan, Egypt have been a source of

00:13:12: comfort and protection to the Israelis even during the last two years of extreme violence

00:13:19: and potentially extreme unrest in both of those countries but both the Jordanians and the Egyptians

00:13:25: and indeed other countries in the region have helped to provide Israel with a security blanket

00:13:32: and to keep it safe despite many popular movements in the opposite direction. So it is their peace

00:13:42: agreements the peace agreements they have with Israel that have kept Israel safe.

00:13:47: What I do wonder is when you say that it doesn't really matter what Netanyahu says like for me it's

00:14:00: just the fact that he's sitting there with President Donald Trump who is a big actor in all of this

00:14:10: and he's also like not saying anything against it so he would be one to maybe have the power to

00:14:20: influence the change that you say is required so this is where I don't understand like I understand

00:14:31: like that you say it doesn't really matter what he says but in the end it does somehow matter if

00:14:38: no one is speaking against him right. Sure and look from a power perspective you're right I mean

00:14:44: Israel is a very powerful country a very powerful army it has controlled dominated occupied in this

00:14:51: colonizing our land since decades and we've been trying to get them to stop occupying us through

00:15:02: peaceful means for decades as well and it hasn't worked. There is a clear massive imbalance of

00:15:09: power Israel is very strongly supported by its allies abroad first and foremost the United States

00:15:17: but also European countries and others and and I think of course yes it matters and

00:15:26: I am aware very aware that our future as Palestinians depends on us being able to work

00:15:36: together with the Israelis to convince the Israelis that we are to use a much abused term I think

00:15:46: but it is true partners in peace that doesn't mean that I want to necessarily as I say live with them

00:15:51: but that we have to take responsibility for building a better future together individually

00:15:59: separately but also to work together towards that outcome and when it comes to the US

00:16:11: I think that President Trump has actually shown

00:16:16: a lot of ability a lot of interest in resolving the situation and that's something that we haven't

00:16:28: seen from a US administration in a while I think he's shown that he has a lot of leverage

00:16:33: and we've seen that both with the first ceasefire which then Israel breached but also with the

00:16:42: situation in Iran where he was able to call back the Israeli jets that were off to bomb once again

00:16:50: and he just picked up the phone and called apparently Prime Minister Netanyahu and

00:16:56: got the jets to turn around so he has the leverage and he's willing to use it and he wants to

00:17:01: have an outcome that he thinks will hopefully be fitting and sufficient to give him a Nobel Prize

00:17:12: which is great I mean I would love him to get a Nobel Prize for a peace between the Palestinians

00:17:21: and the Israelis for a peaceful Middle East but the difficulty that we have here is that we need

00:17:26: to make sure that what he's doing there is not being diverted he's not being led up the garden

00:17:33: path by Netanyahu because one thing that we do know is that Netanyahu has since his early days

00:17:41: in politics done his utmost to undermine the possibility of peace with the Palestinians to

00:17:46: undermine the possibility of a two-state solution and he's boasted about it I mean he's very proud

00:17:52: of it he's proud of his achievements in this matter and so my hope is that the US administration

00:18:01: and President Trump are interested in a peaceful outcome that they know that they have the leverage

00:18:09: that they want to use and that they can use that they also are interested in a regional peaceful

00:18:16: outcome as well they have other regional allies not only Israel and those allies also want peace

00:18:23: and want to enter this conflict on the basis of a Palestinian state along 1967 borders

00:18:29: Saudi Arabia all of the Arab League has announced that they will happily

00:18:34: work with and accept Israel as a full member of the region with open economic relations

00:18:45: and political relations as long as it fulfills this relatively simple condition so I think that

00:18:54: the US administration could achieve this um what you don't want or what one doesn't want is for them

00:19:03: to be um as I say misled by by the current Israeli government into putting a band-aid on the situation

00:19:11: and then and then uh you know hoping for the best because that doesn't work it hasn't worked in the

00:19:19: past it won't work now and um and I and I really honestly believe apart from the fact that the

00:19:25: killing in Gaza needs to stop we need to surge humanitarian aid this is not a subject for agreement

00:19:30: this is just something that needs to happen and if I were President Trump I would just do that now

00:19:34: because that would be his win I mean imagine he tells Netanyahu look just stop bombing

00:19:40: stop the bombing take your soldiers out of Gaza they don't need to be in Gaza

00:19:44: why are they there now nobody's attacking Israel from Gaza the only killing that's

00:19:51: happening in Gaza is happening inside Gaza they're just shooting people in the streets

00:19:55: in cafes in hospitals but why do you think he's not saying this

00:20:01: well maybe he hasn't yet um thought about how this would work so I would suggest that he he

00:20:10: could read our plan and and and and it might give him some ideas but for me the win would be there

00:20:16: the win would be to actually not do the same thing that's been tried over the decades in the

00:20:24: past many times and has always failed the win would be not to do what Prime Minister Netanyahu

00:20:30: and his extremist government want the US to do because they aren't interested in peace everybody

00:20:37: knows this what he could do is do his best thinking outside the box which we know he does

00:20:44: and do things differently and if he were to tell the Israelis just stop pull out of Gaza

00:20:51: stop the killing in Gaza in the West Bank you pause pause the hostilities no need for an agreement

00:20:58: and then we can sit down without that and just work out what by the way our in our plan we're

00:21:04: calling for is a an armistice agreement so a long term cessation of violence and hostilities between

00:21:12: the Israelis and Palestinians and I say this this by the way that's very important not between Israel

00:21:18: and Hamas because Hamas is one faction it's one political party um the conflict is not between

00:21:27: Israel and Hamas the conflict is between Israel and the Palestinians and for a solution to be

00:21:36: durable even for a ceasefire and cessation of hostilities to be durable it has to be all encompassing

00:21:42: it has to be holistic it has to be all of Palestine and Israel all of the Palestinians and all of the

00:21:48: Israelis for now let's take a moment to go over the key components of the armistice plan so unlike

00:21:56: what we discussed earlier what Netanyahu has said and other proposals that have been made

00:22:01: your plan outlines a transition that is rooted not in containment but in self-determination

00:22:10: accountability and international law so I'd like to ask you to explain and briefly elaborate on the

00:22:20: core elements of your proposal so there's a few basic elements and then there's obviously a lot

00:22:31: of detail and and then there's an overall point so let me start with the overall point

00:22:39: what this aims to do what this plan aims to do is not be a peace agreement between Israel and

00:22:48: Palestine or Israel and the Palestinians we don't believe I don't believe that this is

00:22:53: a situation where we are ready or able to sign or enter into a peace agreement we don't that the

00:23:01: level of trauma on the Palestinian side also on the Israeli side and the level of destruction on

00:23:10: the Palestinian side the level of healing and rebuilding that's going to be needed just again

00:23:16: starting with basic food and shelter is enormous I mean the mind boggles at the level the scale

00:23:26: of the destruction right now in Gaza I'm extremely worried because as you know that's also been

00:23:32: happening in the West Bank it's also if things now stop in Gaza the last time they paused in Gaza

00:23:38: Israel increased up its operations in the West Bank and also then began to carry out military

00:23:45: operations in the refugee camps in Tulkerem and Urshams and Jenin so I'm nervous that this will

00:23:52: get even worse in the West Bank it's on the verge of it it's already pretty bad

00:23:57: so this is not a situation where either side is able to enter into the contours or the the

00:24:06: final peace agreement yet what we need is two things I think first basic human security

00:24:15: the food the shelter the aid but also the the protection from from being killed

00:24:20: the ability to know that we're going to be alive tomorrow unless obviously

00:24:26: one can never know that but at least within reason and and so and and that's an essential part of

00:24:35: this plan sort of guaranteeing that for both for the Israelis also and the Palestinians

00:24:42: but also then a time period a transitional time period during which this continues

00:24:48: the safety and security is provided and we're calling for international peacekeepers to do that

00:24:54: in the West Bank in Gaza and Palestine and Israel along the lines as well and

00:25:00: this is what will allow the Palestinians and the Israelis

00:25:05: both first to begin to heal to come down to have some breathing space and to begin to build

00:25:13: also within their societies and to be able to think more clearly and rationally and hopefully

00:25:19: hopefully about a future and how they want that future to look so it's only at the end of this

00:25:25: transition that one would enter into a peace agreement between Palestinians and Israelis

00:25:31: and at that point it may well be that after the transition period when everything is calm

00:25:39: that anyone of a number of

00:25:42: other solutions creative solutions might be the one that is chosen so it could be a two-state

00:25:51: solution it could be a confederation along the lines of for instance the land for all

00:25:56: it could be a one-state if that's what people want it's possible but right now we're not there so

00:26:02: the two the sort of the overarching things are we need to provide safety and security for Palestinians

00:26:08: and Israelis we're incapable of doing that for ourselves so that needs to be provided from the

00:26:14: outside by peacekeepers and second that the transitional period is necessary in order for us

00:26:22: to be able to reach a peace agreement and that transitional period will allow us to be able

00:26:27: to work on our internal society structures politics reform etc i hope on the Israeli side

00:26:36: as well but certainly on the Palestinian side and then the third thing is and this is sort of now

00:26:41: coming a bit lower is well what is it that makes this different from let's say

00:26:49: the infamous roadmap of the past and you mentioned the term roadmap in your introduction and i

00:26:56: thought and i don't like roadmap Palestinians don't like roadmap and in fact at some point over

00:27:03: the past couple of years people were talking about well we need a pathway to a state instead of

00:27:08: roadmap they're now using pathway we're beyond that the Oslo process that was begun in 1993

00:27:19: was a roadmap or a pathway or a something that was supposed to lead in the end to a Palestinian

00:27:28: state it failed and it was supposed to by the way lead to a Palestinian state in 1998 so

00:27:37: one of the basic premises of this is that of this plan is that the Oslo process is over

00:27:45: the Oslo agreements are defunct their null and void and what applies therefore is the basic

00:27:52: international legal structure which means that as reconfirmed by the icj in its advisory opinion

00:28:00: the whole of 1967 occupied Palestinian territory the west bank including East Jerusalem and Gaza

00:28:09: are occupied territory and as you know there are many obligations that came out of this

00:28:15: opinion including the obligation of states such as European states and others to ensure that

00:28:22: the impact and effects of this of this occupation were countered that that they were not supporting

00:28:30: this occupation in any way were yet to see how that's going to translate into into action by

00:28:37: by Europe or others we're definitely seeing action on this front by the way by by other

00:28:47: countries members of BRICS or the global south you mentioned that Netanyahu is in Washington

00:28:54: or was in Washington yesterday but also I don't know if you saw the president of Columbia

00:29:03: wrote an article yesterday talking about a conference that they are organizing on the

00:29:07: 15th of July in Bogota which is specifically aiming to address this gap in the enforcement

00:29:15: of international law and the need to reinforce the rules-based system international rules-based

00:29:21: system in light of how Israel is behaving so yes there are there are I would say there are more

00:29:35: countries that actually see the need for this and for this law-based structure than than you might

00:29:42: think and by the way I'm just going to mention that if I were Ukrainian I would be leading this

00:29:51: charge I would be leading this effort to stand up for international law on the rules-based order

00:29:57: because that end of Europe which is being protected by Ukraine as I understand from Russia

00:30:05: that is completely reliant on international law and the illegality of occupation so I'm you know

00:30:16: so our the third part I'll wrap it up now is is just that we are relying on this international

00:30:23: law the basis is the occupied territory the occupied Palestinian territory of 19 which was

00:30:28: occupied in 1967 and we're also saying that a Palestinian state already exists in that territory

00:30:38: let's talk about reform and political representation your plan highlights the need for reform across

00:30:46: various sectors in Palestine including PLO reform also technocratic governance and

00:30:53: as you mentioned earlier even engagement with Hamas could you elaborate on that how do you see

00:31:00: it working and what should reform actually look like so I'll pick up the last point I just made

00:31:08: which was that we say a Palestinian state already exists the Palestinian state exists because it

00:31:16: was declared already by the Palestinians in 1988 it's been recognized by 149 countries or something

00:31:22: around the world and it is necessary that we start with this because the Palestinian state gives us

00:31:31: the context in which to both look outwards and look inwards looking outwards it allows us to

00:31:41: interact with the rest of the world including Israel it gives us a line a borderline which is

00:31:47: the 1967 line along which peacekeepers can maintain the peace they will also obviously have to be

00:31:55: inside the West Bank there are settlements there we're not we're being realistic here

00:32:02: and we have to work out how exactly the the peacekeepers would function within the West Bank

00:32:12: and around settlement blocks but it is clear that the Palestinian state needs to be there

00:32:21: because this is the the entity that will be able to request as it has done by the way the presence

00:32:27: of international peacekeepers and it also provides us that so that's sort of outwards looking but in

00:32:35: words looking it provides us with two things first it provides the Palestinians with a reassurance

00:32:42: another form of security and and I mentioned this here because in many of my conversations

00:32:52: back home people are now the their biggest fear is that we're going to be exterminated wiped out

00:33:02: and you know that fear is both physical I mean people in Gaza are worried that they will be dead

00:33:09: by the afternoon or killed but it's also a more general fear that that the Israeli the current

00:33:17: Israeli government is intent on wiping us out we have we've had many statements we have had many

00:33:25: televised addresses we've had letters we've had clear statements of intent which is partly why

00:33:32: obviously the ICC said that there was a plausible plausible case of genocide and and it's in this

00:33:41: intent this plausible intent that I understand although this is not my specialty but that I

00:33:48: understand that that they have found that they made that finding on on that basis

00:33:54: that's intent to do this. The other side of that intent and of the actions

00:33:59: that we're seeing in Gaza and the West Bank and Jerusalem is the fear, terror.

00:34:05: I mean we're terrified. So the state, the Palestinian state, saying that it

00:34:14: exists now tells us that at least we will not be wiped off the map. We know

00:34:21: that this is the last chance. I think the Israeli government is also well aware

00:34:27: of this. This is the last chance, the last moment when a two-state solution

00:34:33: which actually has a state of Palestine is possible. And the fear is that there

00:34:45: will be either no Palestinians left or no Palestine left very soon. So we need

00:34:55: the reassurance that all of these international legal instruments going

00:35:00: back to the early UN Security Council resolutions on the illegality of the

00:35:06: acquisition of territory by force, 242, 338 and all of the

00:35:13: ICJ decisions and opinions, that these will be implemented and that there is a

00:35:19: legal basis, a legal guarantee, a legal ground which will not be given up. So it

00:35:29: is important. It's also important because given what we saw with Oslo and the other

00:35:36: roadmaps, it's important that the Palestinians know that the state is

00:35:42: there because then we can work from that basis towards something maybe else,

00:35:47: something better. We can either build that state and we need the state because

00:35:52: otherwise how are you going to build an economy? What context are you going to

00:35:57: build an economy in? How can you interact with your neighbors, your

00:36:02: neighboring countries including Israel if you're not actually a state? And

00:36:07: equally, how can you rebuild inside? And that's the was a long preamble to the

00:36:13: response to your question. But this is the base to make reformation possible. It

00:36:17: is the foundation, it's the platform because at the moment we are in a

00:36:22: situation where the Palestinian Authority, which was created under

00:36:29: the Oslo and as a result of the Oslo agreements, is operating with extremely

00:36:36: limited jurisdiction, even in the West Bank, much more limited even than it was

00:36:42: supposed to have under the Oslo agreements and certainly much less than a

00:36:46: Palestinian government ought to have. And we have a PLO which is essentially

00:36:52: marginalized, sidelined and unreformed. Now we need to bring back the PLO in

00:37:02: order to make sure that the Palestinians are all represented, Gaza, the West Bank,

00:37:07: Jerusalem, the diaspora, the refugees. And we need to make sure that therefore the

00:37:13: PLO implements the agreement that it entered into with Hamas and the other

00:37:19: Palestinian factions about a year ago in Beijing. And this was this was a time

00:37:25: when Hamas essentially signed up to the PLO political program, which means it

00:37:32: basically also agrees to a two-state solution and also agrees to hand over

00:37:37: power to power in Gaza, for instance, legitimate authority to a legitimate

00:37:46: Palestinian government. So that agreement is somehow hanging, it hasn't been

00:37:52: implemented. One of the things that we talk about in the plan in a very early

00:37:58: stage following the immediate cessation of hostilities in the surge of aid is to

00:38:03: bring in Hamas and the other factions under the umbrella of the PLO to

00:38:08: implement the Beijing agreement and we propose a more practical mechanism, we

00:38:14: call it a factions agreement, to give teeth, if you like, to the

00:38:19: Beijing declaration to make sure that it functions. And we see this as the

00:38:25: beginning of the process of reform. So you start by including Hamas and the

00:38:30: factions under the PLO. The PLO can then enter into an agreement on behalf of

00:38:36: everybody with the Israelis and that agreement would be an armistice

00:38:39: agreement. And it would be an armistice agreement that basically says, look

00:38:44: there's Palestine, there's Israel, Palestinians and the Israelis are

00:38:48: agreeing to an armistice, we're not going to kill each other, we're not going to

00:38:51: fight with each other, and that's going to be guaranteed by the peacekeepers for

00:38:55: the next two or three years. The peacekeepers are? International. They can

00:39:00: be Arab led, they can be U.S. led, they can be European led, they can be, they

00:39:07: should ideally have a UN mandate, but whether they are actually UN blue

00:39:12: helmets or some other multilateral force, I think the key element there is that

00:39:17: they are UN mandated. We don't want, and that's actually become even more obvious

00:39:23: in the last few months because what you really don't want is some opaque

00:39:29: internationally dubious group of contractors to come in under a name

00:39:37: like the so-called Gaza Humanitarian Foundation and start taking things

00:39:43: over. We need people to come in who are proper peacekeepers, who abide

00:39:49: by the rule of law, who understand why they're there, who understand what

00:39:54: values they are representing and what values they are also transmitting to the

00:39:58: people they work with on the ground. So for me the United Nations is by far the

00:40:04: best qualified on that side. I think that the U.S. also has a lot of experience

00:40:11: with having boots on the ground and could work pretty well in a context

00:40:17: where it also had regional partners and allies who have said they would be

00:40:21: happy to support, I don't know, the Emirates, Qatar, Jordan, Egypt have

00:40:27: already been helping, so there's a lot of ways this could pan out, but they

00:40:32: need to come in and they need to have a proper UN mandate, they need to be

00:40:35: transparent and clear and they need to be doing a good job of monitoring and

00:40:40: ideally actually enforcing, making sure that there are no breaches of the

00:40:46: armistice. And you took me away from the sort of internal stuff as well, but it is

00:40:57: important that you have the political context, so the state and the inclusion

00:41:01: of everybody in the PLO, in order also to legitimize the peacekeepers and what

00:41:06: comes next. Because what you don't want is for the peacekeepers to be viewed as

00:41:12: an extension of Israeli occupation. The peacekeepers have to come in at the

00:41:16: request of the Palestinians, to protect the Palestinians and the Israelis, of

00:41:21: course, but they have to be there as something different, they have to be

00:41:26: there as actually an expression of Palestinian sovereignty and not as a

00:41:33: denial of it. So while all of this stands in major contrast to other plans that

00:41:40: seek to avoid Palestinian leadership entirely, which is of course an important

00:41:46: point, I'd like to get back to a question that we only touched on briefly. So

00:41:51: what would be the ultimate outcome of this armistice? You mentioned the

00:41:57: possibility of a two-state solution or perhaps a land for all and there are

00:42:02: various ideas out there, but in your plan do you outline a specific, concrete

00:42:08: outcome that you see as most likely or do you, for example, address the two-state

00:42:15: solution directly? In the plan we're very deliberately and we're very

00:42:21: clear about being agnostic about what the final peace agreement looks like.

00:42:28: There's no reason to preempt it at the minute and I can maybe imagine, but I

00:42:37: don't know if I can imagine enough, what it would be like to be in a situation of

00:42:42: actual calm and safety for three or four years, or how many, let's say three

00:42:48: years, and have freedom of political expression and all of this happening at

00:42:53: the same time, I don't know what people will end up choosing or where they'll

00:42:58: decide to go and I don't want to preempt it. But I would also say something

00:43:03: else, which is, and I think I said it with you before, maybe in the room, not here,

00:43:09: but you know peace isn't actually the end, peace is just the beginning, it's a

00:43:18: required necessity, it's a need to be able to do things, to be able to build,

00:43:23: to be able to have a life, to be able to think freely and live happily. Peace is

00:43:29: not some faraway goal, peace is something you have to have in order to do

00:43:33: everything, and so peace is not the solution, peace is a need so that we can

00:43:43: build a future, and there is no point, I think, at which we will know that we have

00:43:50: a solution, we will just be at peace and we will be living normal lives, and then

00:43:56: at some point we'll realize that actually things are okay, and this is I

00:43:59: think important because the same applies to the two-state solution. I think that

00:44:08: it's important to start with the two states, because at the moment that is

00:44:17: the most efficient way of giving both peoples a sense of security and safety

00:44:25: and a political framework that allows them to express themselves, and by the

00:44:29: way the Israelis express themselves in Israel and so on, and I'm not going to

00:44:33: go into the difficult debates around Palestinians who have Israeli citizenship,

00:44:38: the Israeli Palestinian citizens of Israel who are struggling with that

00:44:43: self-expression within Israel, but leaving that aside for now, the

00:44:47: Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem need to have a polity in

00:44:54: which to express themselves, and so do by the way the Palestinians who are

00:45:00: abroad, the ones who are outside Palestine, Israel, the ones who are still in

00:45:05: refugee camps in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and who are just scattered around the

00:45:11: world, and the two polities for those expressions are the state, for

00:45:18: those who are inside the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza, and the PLO as an

00:45:24: expression of the entire people, and that has to run parallel until such time as

00:45:30: the final peace agreement is signed, but in the meantime what you're doing by

00:45:36: having a state first, not at the end, is you're saying that part of the solution

00:45:43: is here, what we're talking about is then how it works, how that state is going

00:45:49: to come into existence, how it's going to operate, how it's going to interact

00:45:53: with Israel and its neighbors, and that really is what the solution is. It's the

00:46:00: development into the future, the building of bridges and ties, the building

00:46:05: of infrastructure, and the building of the bases on which you have

00:46:10: that future. So as you say that peace is a necessity to build a future, how if

00:46:18: peace is achieved, how will it be kept? Can we make sure that peace will last?

00:46:24: I think nobody can ever be sure of anything, but I would say that, and this

00:46:35: depends on how you understand the reason for the conflict, so I do not see

00:46:43: this as, I don't, this is not a religious conflict. Palestinians have no

00:46:50: problem with Jews, I have no problem with Jews. Palestinians were, I mean

00:46:57: Palestinians are a multicultural, multi-religious civilization that in the

00:47:02: past until the creation of the state of Israel was not only Muslim and Christian

00:47:06: but also Jewish, so this is not a religious conflict and the fact that it

00:47:13: is becoming increasingly religious is an issue. We need to address that just as

00:47:22: we need to address all the extremism that we see also now on the Israeli side

00:47:29: with this sort of the messianic hilltop youth and so on. We need to address that

00:47:34: and the only way that I can see to address that is through providing people

00:47:41: with hope, a real hope, I mean not just some vague thing but actually a life in

00:47:49: which they can live free with dignity and express themselves and work towards

00:47:58: something that will be better for them in the future. So for me this context, this

00:48:05: structure is how you deal with the possibility of future conflict, it's how

00:48:11: you deal, now you won't deal with everyone, there will be people who are angry,

00:48:16: there will be people who want to spoil, there will be people who, and I think

00:48:20: this is bound to be the case, but I also think that in the case of a, well in the

00:48:30: case of this plan for instance, if you actually have a Palestinian state

00:48:34: recognized on those borders with the peace being kept by international

00:48:39: peacekeepers and the ability to begin to express yourself as a Palestinian through

00:48:44: these mechanisms that we have that we're putting in place for the

00:48:46: transitional period like citizens assemblies and other forms of citizen

00:48:51: participation and oversight, then you have a strong interest in building what

00:49:02: you have, nobody wants to keep fighting, the Gazans don't want to be bombed

00:49:08: every day nor do the people in the West Bank want to have their houses burned

00:49:12: down by settlers every day, people want to be able to have normal lives and

00:49:19: therefore in my view you would actually find a surge of support for a, for this

00:49:29: structure as it stands and also for continuing and maintaining a peaceful

00:49:36: situation, so you're addressing the root causes of the violence as opposed to

00:49:43: trying to, I don't know, fight people into a corner and and and I would say if you

00:49:51: flip it, if you don't do something like this, if you don't tell the Palestinians

00:50:00: okay, you know what, international law is clear, you have waited too long, you've

00:50:07: made so many concessions, you've suffered so much, it's enough, you have your state

00:50:14: and we're going to protect it, 67 borders, that's what everybody agreed and

00:50:19: that's what the law says is fair, so there you go, if you don't do this, then

00:50:25: what you're doing is telling the Palestinians that it's basically, there's

00:50:31: only one way that they will ever be free and if it's not going to be through law

00:50:38: negotiations then you're going to push everybody into militarization and not

00:50:43: just in Palestine but also further afield and and and that will lead to

00:50:48: regional destabilization and it will lead to the region plunging into a mess, a

00:50:55: quagmire, which it will take us decades to get out of, so the two sides of that

00:51:03: are one, I think that you need to provide this context and you need to give

00:51:08: people a sense that they're being treated fairly and that they don't have to

00:51:12: worry about being wiped off the map anymore, it's fine and that gives the

00:51:17: support to the peace and the end of hostilities and takes away hopefully

00:51:23: and over time will take away more of the reasons for for conflict and violence

00:51:28: with Israel but also the alternative to that is if you don't do it and if you

00:51:32: don't do it very soon because this is pretty much the last chance, as most

00:51:35: people are saying and know, then you're going to say to the Palestinians and

00:51:40: to everybody else, forget international law, forget diplomacy and negotiations,

00:51:45: it's all a joke, you're going to either live subjugated under somebody's boot,

00:51:50: watching your land, your homes, your culture, your civilization be wiped off

00:51:55: the map or you're going to get up and do what everybody I think would be brought

00:52:03: up to do in that case, which is resist. I understand that you're implying that

00:52:08: peace is not a matter of destiny but a question of political will, so what in

00:52:16: your opinion is the main contributor to peace? Agency, it's agency and you know I

00:52:24: can tell you that as Palestinians we are victims and we have been suffering

00:52:30: and and and but I don't want to be a victim, I want to be a protagonist, I

00:52:34: want to, being free means taking responsibility for things and acting,

00:52:39: that's what being free is, being free isn't sitting down and waiting for

00:52:42: someone to do something, tell you what to do, you know I can be free in that way

00:52:47: in a prison cell, I can be responsible for what my actions are within a jail, the

00:52:52: fact is I'm still in a jail and occupation is a jail, it's a jail which

00:52:57: controls all of the outer bounds of the lives of a Palestinian plus a lot of

00:53:01: what they do inside, in Gaza they were even controlling how many calories went

00:53:05: in every day, I mean for 20 years almost, so yes and I think that by the way even

00:53:15: despite the deficiencies of the Oslo structures and and the agreements and

00:53:23: and and and the difficulties that we faced with the occupation during that

00:53:30: time there was still an extraordinary amount of Palestinian building and

00:53:35: Palestinian development, building meaning building institutions and things,

00:53:40: Palestinian development and Palestinian agency, now the context that that was

00:53:47: being done in was extremely minimal, it was a slightly larger jail, we had a few

00:53:56: more privileges but it gives me hope that the Palestinians can build something

00:54:05: great, it gives me hope that the Palestinians are more than capable of

00:54:10: constructing a state that is functioning and I for one really want

00:54:17: whatever we build to be something that we can be proud of but also that the

00:54:23: world can look at and say wow that's how that's how things should be you know

00:54:27: this is this is our opportunity, if it's a new state coming out of nothing and we

00:54:35: have a chance to do it we should do it right, we should make it as efficient, as

00:54:41: effective, as transparent and democratic, as prosperous and successful as it can be

00:54:55: it should be an example to state, that's what I want my Palestine to be, my

00:55:00: Palestine has to be that and therefore I am frustrated with the with the

00:55:06: current leadership obviously, I am frustrated with the current situation

00:55:11: that we've been pushed into by the Oslo Accords and the situation with Israel

00:55:17: in the intervening years and I think it's extremely important that as we move

00:55:21: forward if we have this context and I do hope that we'll be able to move forward

00:55:26: in this direction and I understand that the Israelis will, this current Israeli

00:55:30: government at least, will find it difficult but I have hope that many

00:55:35: other Israelis will see why it is necessary and good but if we do move

00:55:40: forward then we need to make sure that we build in and that's also in the plan a

00:55:45: way of avoiding the pitfalls of Oslo, all of the ones that we've seen including

00:55:55: potential corruption, including ensuring more citizen involvement in

00:56:00: governance including and leading up to proper elections, real elections both

00:56:09: for the Palestinians in Palestine, for the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem, for

00:56:13: the Palestinian state but also for the PLO as a representative of all the

00:56:17: Palestinians because these are two entities which are very far from being

00:56:21: democratically representative and I believe that the Palestinians, the

00:56:28: suffering maybe makes them victims but I also think that it means that we

00:56:32: deserve better. I think that the Palestinians deserve better than to

00:56:37: be given a new governor at some point and who's going to be placed in there by

00:56:42: somebody else and who's going to just keep things the way they are. We deserve,

00:56:46: we deserve more and I'm not sitting here sort of, I'm not a

00:56:52: supplicant, I'm not asking for more, I'm saying we will build better and we will

00:56:59: get more and you know in the end what we are asking for and through this plan

00:57:06: we're helping to show how you can get rid of the prison that surrounds us and

00:57:12: allow us to begin to build a free house let's say but in the absence of this

00:57:19: plan as I say then there is no choice but to keep banging on the prison door.

00:57:26: We've seen that states like Spain, Ireland, Norway, they recognized Palestine

00:57:33: in recent months which I wonder do you see it as something

00:57:40: symbolical, is it like does it show political will or like in the end what

00:57:46: is the role of Europe in all of this, what can and what should they do to

00:57:53: support Palestinian self-determination? I mean so answer the first part yes it's

00:58:01: extremely important and it is enormously appreciated because if nothing else it

00:58:07: tells the Palestinians that they're not alone and they're not forgotten and I

00:58:10: think that for those who are stuck in Gaza to hear that a country like Spain

00:58:16: or Norway has stepped up and seen them means an enormous amount it doesn't

00:58:22: obviously they need food and they need shelter and they need medicines I'm not

00:58:28: going to kind of go over this and I know but I have to repeat it because it is

00:58:32: just but it is important ma'am it is extremely important and but it's not

00:58:40: the only thing because taking the recognition step is ideally should be

00:58:47: done in the form again that that we put forward in the plan meaning you should

00:58:51: then take the necessary legal consequences of that to the next step so

00:58:56: what does that mean there's a Palestinian state the Palestinian state is

00:58:58: under occupation it's under attack how do we as let's say now I'm speaking as a

00:59:04: European nation well the ICJ said this is under occupation we say this is a

00:59:09: Palestinian state under occupation the Palestinian state is requesting peace

00:59:13: keepers it's requesting help so there are different ways that we need to

00:59:17: approach this but definitely the legal the legal pathways clear politically

00:59:22: it's a little bit more fraught but at least and Spain has begun to do this

00:59:31: stop supporting the Israeli government in its actions at least stop providing

00:59:39: arms at least put sanctions on those members of of the Israeli government

00:59:47: that are let's say beyond the pale at the very least at least apply

00:59:53: international law and enforce the warrants of the International Criminal

01:00:00: Court which really it should not be a request this isn't a request from the

01:00:08: Palestinians this is a a legal requirement by an international body

01:00:12: which was created by treaty in 1998 by all of these countries to great fanfare

01:00:17: everybody was extremely proud and extremely happy that this International

01:00:21: Criminal Court had been created and now suddenly and and make sure at the very

01:00:29: least that Europe stands up for the international legal order because I

01:00:34: think that this is a moment that Europe is about to miss the world from my humble

01:00:43: perspective looks to me like the world is teetering it's it's not sure which way

01:00:48: it's going it looks like the international legal order to the extent

01:00:52: there was one is collapsing maybe it's already collapsed and you have a

01:01:01: resurgence of power politics of real politic bombing and so on and so forth

01:01:07: how and at the same time you have a whole enormous part of the world which

01:01:13: we're not talking about yet here the global south some of whom some of you

01:01:19: know some of whose members some of whose countries are actually very powerful

01:01:22: economically who care about the rules-based order it's part of their

01:01:28: DNA they've you know they really want it to be the case they don't want to

01:01:33: let it go and you've got in the middle of all of this you've got Europe Europe

01:01:38: which is an international entity it's not even a nation Europe is founded by

01:01:46: international law it's based on international law it has to uphold

01:01:50: international law because if treaties mean nothing then why wouldn't I know

01:01:55: Italy walk away from Europe tomorrow what are the consequences so you have to

01:02:00: and you can as European as Europeans actually hold on to reinforce that

01:02:09: system and potentially become and play a leading role in this world order which

01:02:18: is based on rules and stuck structures and systems that seemed to make sense and

01:02:24: seem to make sense to the majority of people in the world so I would say the

01:02:29: role of Europe in this recognizing the occupation is a very good start

01:02:38: recognizing that there is a state of Palestine is another important thing

01:02:42: recognizing that there are consequences that flow from this and how to end those

01:02:46: consequences is another thing acting on the basis of the Israeli actions in

01:02:55: Gaza and the West Bank whether you consider them genocidal or not

01:02:59: certainly they are heading and seem to represent many different types of war

01:03:05: crime do that prevent them don't support them don't send weapons in let's see

01:03:15: some consequences and don't don't assume that by not doing anything you're

01:03:27: staying out of it because you're not Europe is deeply involved both in the

01:03:34: creation of Israel and the reason and causes and justification for its creation

01:03:39: but also for the justification of its morally abhorrent behavior so I'll say

01:03:49: look with regards to Europe I'll give you an answer a little bit like the one

01:03:57: I gave about Netanyahu and the state I think there are things that seem to be

01:04:03: the things that are talked about that may be easier or harder like the

01:04:08: association agreement or sanctioning violent settlers or or and then there's

01:04:16: if you want the truth what I think Europe should do and I think that is

01:04:22: probably politically unrealistic but it is being seen in countries like Spain

01:04:27: and Norway you have to stand up for what is right and stand against what is wrong

01:04:33: and in this particular case the right and the wrong are extremely clear meaning

01:04:39: that there is no way that what Israel is doing in Gaza right now or in the West

01:04:44: Bank for that matter is right so you have to stop it you have to call it out at

01:04:49: every single point you have to do everything you can to prevent it from

01:04:53: happening you have to do everything you can to make sure that you are not

01:04:56: allowing it or supporting it supporting it in happening and it may well be that

01:05:03: a discussion about whether or not to discuss the suspension of the

01:05:07: association agreement with Israel is a step in that direction I don't think

01:05:12: it's sufficient nor do I believe that acting in these very small steps is in

01:05:20: the advantage or interest of either Europe or Israel because the longer this

01:05:25: goes on the worse it is going to be for Israel the more destabilized the region

01:05:30: will be the more misery and hunger and the more that's going to have to be done

01:05:35: to rebuild and reconstruct and fix and unless we fix it now meaning unless

01:05:41: Europe really takes active steps now towards again if you come back to my

01:05:47: plan what we're suggesting is the way out then this is the last moment that

01:05:54: this will be able to happen and then after that you're going to have another

01:05:57: series of conflicts wars destabilization refugees coming into Europe

01:06:04: trade routes blocked in the Strait of Hormuz and and the Red Sea and and and

01:06:11: so I would say

01:06:18: what we need to see is real leadership we need to see people taking stands and

01:06:29: this is a very easy place a very easy issue on which to take a stand because

01:06:35: I believe it is one of the few issues where doing the right thing morally is

01:06:39: also doing the right thing from an interest perspective for Europe in the

01:06:45: region for itself internally for itself with regards to you know Russia Ukraine

01:06:50: but also with regards to its role today and in the future in the world and in

01:06:54: supporting this rules-based order so let's see what you do but get up and do

01:07:00: something Europeans come on thank you Jamai this was the very first episode of

01:07:06: the apican podcast thank you very much for listening

01:07:10: apican stands for European Palestinian Israeli trilateral dialogue an initiative

01:07:17: that creates and foster spaces for dialogue between Palestinian and

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